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pendragon

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Posts: 1,120
Reply with quote  #16 
A few other points I remembered this morning. Prior to my G1 adventure, I had been using a 1.2m offset dish to receive F1R and F2. As a preliminary experiment I installed a universal LNBF on another identical 1.2m dish and ran some spectrums for G1. This was pretty encouraging because my CNRs seemed to be on par with what you're seeing on your 1.5m dish: 7-10 dB comes to mind. When I bought my first F1X LNBF, I put it on this same dish and it was an immediate NoGo with the Shaw receiver. I moved over the 1.8m and had some reception success, but not enough to make the switch. I didn't have an extra 2.6m at the time, and it took me a year to find another one. That's when the real work began.

If everything worked according to theory, you would get another 1.6 dB of gain from your 1.8m over the 1.5m. That's not a lot but obviously could help. A 2.6m gets 3.2 dB over a 1.8m. 

The G1 footprints do dip further south on the east coast than in the western US. Some friends have reported easier success there, but not too much further south than say VA or NC. Still, you might luck out with a stronger sidelobe in FL, so don't let me entirely rain on your parade.

The F1X and Shaw triple LNBFs use a LO of 10073 MHz if memory serves. Thus they receive both G1 and F1R without having to do any switching. But your distribution needs to work to nearly 2150 MHz, instead of the usual 1450 MHz.
Voltaic

Registered:
Posts: 448
Reply with quote  #17 
I don't know if this might help but there's the F2R on eBay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/F2R-Twin-LNBF-for-Shaw-Direct-/282060273187

__________________
C-band: 10ft Perfect10 / Chaparral Dual / 2x Norsat 3120F / C2PLL LNBF (sidecar for Circular)
Ku-band: None (Future Project: Prodelin 1.8m Rx/Tx)
Switches: WNC-4x8
Tuners: TBS6925, TBS6902, TBS5022SE, DSR-6000, Cisco D9854

OTA: CM4228 / CM7777 / HDHomeRun EXTEND
bluzee

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Posts: 2,468
Reply with quote  #18 
Before you delve too far  into this project you might  want to note the updated terms of service.

https://assets.aws.shawdirect.ca/uploadedfiles/terms-of-services.pdf
pendragon

Registered:
Posts: 1,120
Reply with quote  #19 
I haven't reviewed the terms of service for a few years, but this looks similar to the last one I read. My understanding is that it is illegal for folks in Canada to pay/receive satellite subscription services provided by other countries, like those from the US in particular. However the converse is not true in the US. I happily pay Dish Network for a subscription. I also happily pay Shaw (for quite a number of years) to subscribe to their service, as do many others in the US and Mexico, especially Canadian snowbirds and expats. Of course it would be within Shaw's right to terminate such services at anytime. Unlike Bell, the Shaw F1R and F2 satellite footprints cover a vast area south of Canada. G1 cuts off very quickly south of the border, and some have speculated this represents a new Shaw policy. Perhaps. However the technical reason they did this was because of an agreement with the FCC that limits G1 power impinging on the US, so as not to interfere with existing US terrestrial services in the band below 11700 MHz. This makes for an intriguing FTA challenge to receive G1 outside of its footprint, regardless of whether one actually watches anything (they do have at least one or two channels in the clear). I have played similar games to lock and scan for channels (usually encrypted) of outrageously out-of-footprint DBS from Brazil, although I have never bothered to watch or subscribe, as I don't speak Portuguese.

iggy57

Registered:
Posts: 331
Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Kurtz
On the topic of Starchoice LNBFs, does anyone have or know where I could get an F1X Twin offset LNBF, that was sold by Kusat.com out of Canada, but apparently they sold out and are discontinued.
They are used on large offset dishes and have the correct L.O. frequencies for G1 and F1R to work with a Starchoice receiver.
(No, a generic universal LNBF will *not* work with a Starchoice receiver.)
Here is a picture:

[0850]


Found some for you if you still need . Shoot me an email if you are still looking .

__________________
LinkBox 9000i ,AZB0X Premium HD+,(NOW DEAD Pansat 9200HD with DVB-S2) , SonicView 8000HD ,10 foot C/ku-Band Mesh  Dish, Star Track Eight Dish mover, One 20" Bell dish subbed ,  and a large stack of paper weights in the closet.
iggy57

Registered:
Posts: 331
Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iggy57


Found some for you if you still need . Shoot me an email if you are still looking .


Nuts after talking with the person it looks to be the F2 that he has for sale .

Sorry about that

__________________
LinkBox 9000i ,AZB0X Premium HD+,(NOW DEAD Pansat 9200HD with DVB-S2) , SonicView 8000HD ,10 foot C/ku-Band Mesh  Dish, Star Track Eight Dish mover, One 20" Bell dish subbed ,  and a large stack of paper weights in the closet.
bluzee

Registered:
Posts: 2,468
Reply with quote  #22 
Apparently Shaw no longer allows reception of their service outside of Canada.  They also do not allow  access to their internet streaming service outside of Canada.    Even moving your equipment from your current service address is now a violation of terms of service, so not even allowed to take a receiver to the cottage any more without permission.
Captain_Kurtz

Registered:
Posts: 4,105
Reply with quote  #23 
@ Callisto:

Quote:
I noticed that Star Choice dishes have a different type of feed mount depending on the dish shape. So will this change the focal length for FTA.


Not exactly sure what you mean by "
different type of feed mount depending on the dish shape"; if you are referring to the shape of the feed throat, then that will determine the illumination pattern of the feedhorn and needs to match the geometry (e.g. oval or round) of the dish. If the dish is wider than it's tall, then the feedhorn needs to be oval.

The focal length is purely a function of the geometry of the dish itself, and doesn't change for different feeds.

Quote:
How about the LNB settings on a receiver- 10750, 10600 or something else & skew settings as well?


I have a few old Starchoice LNBFs, and they all have a 10750MHz L.O.

Post or link to a picture of what you have, or at least post whatever is written on the label.

Captain_Kurtz

Registered:
Posts: 4,105
Reply with quote  #24 
@Voltaic & iggy57: Thank you, but those F2R LNBFs aren't anything particularly special - just standard 10750MHz L.O. LNBFs that are easily obtainable from multiple manufacturers.

@Jean: Apparently the Norsat 4508C LNB will in fact *not* work with a consumer Shaw Direct receiver, not even just for the G1 satellite. Remember that in Canada, Shaw Direct isn't just a DTH satellite service, it's also the primary distribution method for many of those channels to cable headends. So, the 4508C works only when connected to a commercial receiver, e.g. the Drake MEQ1000A listed on the Shaw "Anik G1 / MPEG-4 Information" page that you linked.

@bluzee: My understanding is that a grey-market subscription to Shaw Direct in the USA would be a violation of the Shaw TOS and possibly Canadian, but not US law. So, if the Mounties want to come to FL and serve me a summons, then they are welcome anytime. Lots of snowbirds already in FL, but we always have room for more. [smile]

Quote:
Apparently Shaw no longer allows reception of their service outside of Canada.


It was never really up to Shaw to "allow" reception of their service outside of Canada. The programming rights holders sell the Canadian distribution rights to Canadian networks, who in turn sell rebroadcast / re-transmission rights to Shaw, who then sell to Canadian consumers. Shaw never had any rights to sell their service outside of Canada AFAIK, but they did tacitly allow Canadian snowbirds to take their satellite receivers with them to the USA, but apparently this upset the rights holders farther up the chain and Shaw is cracking down now.
Captain_Kurtz

Registered:
Posts: 4,105
Reply with quote  #25 
pendragon -

Thank you for the detailed guidance. You have saved me countless hours, especially with the information about the large daily variations in C/N from G1.

Quote:
Getting G1 was an obsession with me


My "great white whale" was actually to try to receive the Ku4 (
Canada) beam from Eutelsat 115W in FL. I was using 107.3W as a stopover on the way to 115W to tweak the dish, and noticed the prominent G1 transponders on the analyzer and gave them a shot. Despite the published footprint for the Ku4 beam at 115W showing the outer edge of the footprint (42dBW contour) passing through the FL panhandle, I didn't see so much as a blip on the analyzer; the data transponders on the Mexican Ku beam I can see and lock, no problem.

So, my solution for 115W will be to set up a 1.0m or 1.2m fixed dish when I return to MD in a few weeks - I am inside the 51dBW contour there for the Ku4 beam - and use a Slingbox to send the programming to FL. That will work for the occasional feeds on 115W with minimal hassle. I will also give G1 a shot in MD - and of course should get much better results.

Quote:
I bought several Shaw 'triple satellite' LNBFs (really only dual LNBFs with an internal multiswitch). I modified the one for 107.3W to accept a C120 plate so I could attach an ADF-120 feed, and ignored the LNBF for 111.1W as it would not be spaced correctly on my 2.6m dish. To make room for another LNB on 111.1W, I rotated the Shaw unit 90 degrees and tricked my multiswitch to flip the polarizations. The two Shaw units were much better than the F1X LNBF, but one was clearly better in terms of CNR consistency across H & V.


That's what I was thinking - attach a C120 plate to the 107.3 side of a Shaw feedhorn and either disable and/or simply ignore (with an external 22KHz switch) the 111.1W feedhorn. The idea to rotate it by 90° is genius - my plan was to simply use a second, 1.0m dish for 111.1W.

Quote:
The G1 footprints do dip further south on the east coast than in the western US. Some friends have reported easier success there, but not too much further south than say VA or NC. Still, you might luck out with a stronger sidelobe in FL, so don't let me entirely rain on your parade.


If I'm getting very marginal / occasional locks on a 1.5m dish in FL, then I expect good solid locks from all the G1 transponders on a 1.8m offset dish in MD, if there's no TI. I will have to see the results first, then decide if it's worth the hassle of setting up a dish with a paid Shaw Direct receiver and a Slingbox to be able to view it when I'm in FL, or if I should just be content with my paid Dish service plus FTA and OTA channels from two markets in FL.

Quote:
The F1X and Shaw triple LNBFs use a LO of 10073 MHz if memory serves. Thus they receive both G1 and F1R without having to do any switching. But your distribution needs to work to nearly 2150 MHz, instead of the usual 1450 MHz.


Hmmm. So the choice is either an F1X or a modded Shaw LNBF. Do you have data or at least a sense of how much C/N is needed to overcome the F1X's phase noise issues? It seems that I would be much better off with a modded Shaw LNBF, but if you have a spare F1X you ever wanted to sell....
As for the distribution, I have sworn off cheap CCA cable - pure copper and well-shielded RG6 only.

Quote:
I have played similar games to lock and scan for channels (usually encrypted) of outrageously out-of-footprint DBS from Brazil, although I have never bothered to watch or subscribe, as I don't speak Portuguese.


Yes, I can lock (marginally) those Brazilian DBS channels at 43.1W on a 1.0m dish in MD.
When I found them almost everything except preview channels was encrypted.

Thank you again for all the very useful information.


 
 
pendragon

Registered:
Posts: 1,120
Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Kurtz
I will also give G1 a shot in MD - and of course should get much better results.


I expect G1 will be a slam dunk in MD, certainly better than here if the published footprints are correct. Lucky you having access to a couple of locations for reception. I've always dreamed of a dish on the east coast to go after the Atlantic/European birds I can't see here.

Quote:
So the choice is either an F1X or a modded Shaw LNBF. Do you have data or at least a sense of how much C/N is needed to overcome the F1X's phase noise issues? It seems that I would be much better off with a modded Shaw LNBF, but if you have a spare F1X you ever wanted to sell....


At the time I measured the performance for each TP for both G1 and F1R on several F1X and Shaw LNBs on one of my ADF-120 prime focus feeds, at different times of the day to cover G1's output variations. And on different days. The feed was never moved. I simply swapped the LNBs, which all had been modified with C120 plates. A little tight for accessing the LNB mounting bolts, but easier than retweaking. I captured spectrums for each and logged the Ecb/no for each TP from a Shaw receiver. Actually this was even more comprehensive than I describe, but regardless I have dozens of spreadsheets and plots.

What is disturbing about the F1X is certainly its higher phase noise, but perhaps even worse is its disparity in performance across frequency and polarization. The fact that Shaw uses higher FEC rates on G1 than on F1R and F2 (generally 8/9 vs. 2/3) also makes G1 considerably harder to receive for the same CNR. I can't recall which one, but every F1X unit was worse on a certain polarity versus the other, by at least 1 dB. The frequency variations are on top of that. At arm's length, it's fair to say the Shaw LNBs were outperforming the F1X LNBs by 1-3 dB across frequency and polarization.

I cut open my worst F1X to try some mods. That confirmed the performance problems are caused by a hacked design, particularly in the front-end filtering, and cheap components. If it's not obvious by now, I wouldn't recommend bothering with one.

Quote:
As for the distribution, I have sworn off cheap CCA cable - pure copper and well-shielded RG6 only.


Two other factors that may or may not apply, are the cable run length and switching. Most modern multiswitches are good to 2150 MHz, but there are plenty of older ones that top off at 1450.

Quote:
Yes, I can lock (marginally) those Brazilian DBS channels at 43.1W on a 1.0m dish in MD. When I found them almost everything except preview channels was encrypted.


I haven't tried those. I was actually referring to 55.5W several years ago when I think Galaxy 11 was there.
miguelaqui

Registered:
Posts: 2
Reply with quote  #27 

I found this about ANIK G1 and wanted to share my experience.  I am on the VA / NC border.  I could not get any G1 channels with the 75e from Shaw, I tried a 4 foot, no go,  I tried a 6 foot, but it would only get one transponder , number 16.  So then I installed an 8 foot offset Prodelin in order to receive G1.

I too was shocked at how the signal can differ from hour to hour with the G1 transponders.

I have gone through several situations with trying three different F1X, two different 60e and one 75e LNB’s.

I found out that using the 4x8 powered switch made the signal quality a little better.  I just used an old DirecTv switch.

So, this is the end result.  The new style F1X, with the long neck, works when using a conical scalar connected to the very end.  Also, adding the 111 LNB on the same dish caused interference for the G1 signal.  I accidentally discovered that when the 13v side was disconnected, that the signal was a little better on the horizontal transponders.

  So, since I the most channels that I wanted were on even transponders, I decided to leave it that way.  I connected the 75e dish for the vertical transponders from 107 (missing all G1) and the 111.   

My end result for the beset performance: F1x with a conical scalar on the very end on an 8 foot offset with one cable going to multiswitch, the 18v volt side.  Three cables going to a 75e dish with the triple sat Shaw 75e LNB. Again, I do not get any odd G1 transponders this way, but I get transponders 13 and 14  almost all the time and 16 all the time.   

I wish there were a better LNB that I could use so that I could get both horizontal and vertical without the 2 interfering with each other! From time to time, I used to get transponders 5 and 8, but this was with a F1X that went bad after around a year.

I wish that we could use one of the setup listed here 

https://www.shawbroadcast.com/Documents/bulletins/2012_06_13_LNB.pdf

But, it looks like only the way to go for the setup with a residential receiver would be the $1500 option that might or might not work.  I know that many say that those LNBs cannot be used with a residential receiver, but if you read the following information, I think that I might indeed be possible. 

https://www.shawbroadcast.com/Documents/bulletins/2017_11_23_MPEG-4_Equipment_Update_EN.pdf

I wish there were a way to combine the 4508c with another LNB via diplexer in order to use the 4508c. If I knew more about making notch filters, I would make one that would pass the G1 signal only, and one that would pass the F1 signals only, and then combine the two.  

Also, to anyone interested in going Bell, instead of Shaw, 82 is much stronger than G1 passed Canada.  91, which is required for the guide information, is stronger than G1 passed Canada.  So, if you can get a larger dish, I would try getting 91 on the big dish, and, if you can get transponder 1, that seems to be where the guide comes from, then you can probably get a 30” or 36” dish for 82. Meaning, you can get almost all your channels all the time via Bell and forget about Shaw.  

pendragon

Registered:
Posts: 1,120
Reply with quote  #28 
Interesting results, although I never found a F1X LNBF that was as good as my worst Shaw xKu LNBF on G1. The primary problem with the Norsat LNBs you mentioned for residential reception of Shaw is they do not have the same LO frequency as the Shaw receivers expect. On top of that you need one for each polarization and if you want to get F1R, in addition to G1, that is yet another LNB or two. Unfortunately simple diplexing isn't going to work for G1. Before I jumped into the ocean in my quest for G1, I first tried a couple of high performance Ku universal LNBs and designed and built a block converter to rearrange the G1 spectrum to match what the Shaw receivers wanted. That worked to some degree, but the overall phase noise performance wasn't what I had hoped for. I also tried mechanically trimming/retuning the DROs in a variety of oddball LNBs to achieve the same, but the passive filter traces on the LNB PCBs proved to be too much of an impediment. And hence my xKu and F1X experiments.

In the final analysis I pursued this project more for the fun and academic challenge to see if I could get all G1 TPs 24/7, which I can unless the weather is uncooperative or Telesat does a maneuver on G1. That was good enough reason to keep paying our long term Shaw subscription in addition to our also long term Dish Network subscription. There are many reasons for having both, but what originally attracted me to Shaw was the higher video quality over the US satellite providers. Perhaps this is a direct result of Shaw Broadcast distributing the same TPs to their commercial customers. I have never tried Bell, but I was advised by my Canadian friends many years ago that Bell was distributing mostly (or all) 720p and even these were more horribly compressed than what the US satellite providers bludgeon us with. I took them at their word, so I can't vouch for whether they were right, or if Bell ever changed.
miguelaqui

Registered:
Posts: 2
Reply with quote  #29 
 "I modified the one for 107.3W to accept a C120 plate so I could attach an ADF-120 feed"

I really wish you would show me how to do this!  

RimaNTSS

Registered:
Posts: 471
Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by miguelaqui
I really wish you would show me how to do this! 
You can see some examples in this thread https://rickcaylor.websitetoolbox.com/post/feedhorn-10166595?pid=1309490509
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